One Wank After Another

[coalcube]

A blank assignment is a funny thing, isn't it? When you have it, you don't appreciate it, and when you miss it, it's gone.

Wednesday 10 December: Default deadline (9pm UTC)
Wednesday 17 December: Assignment deadline (9pm UTC)
Wednesday 24 December: Main collection works reveals (9pm UTC)
Thursday 25 December: Madness collection works reveals (9pm UTC)
Thursday 1 January: Author reveals, end of event (9pm UTC)

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Comments

Re: Unpopular Opinion Time

[(Anonymous)]

I think it's valid to discuss where the line for "too many limits" is for an explicitly ODAO exchange, personally, though I don't have strong feelings on what it should be.

I just wish we were still having that argument instead of people repeatedly saying "but setting limits on your writer doesn't limit your writer." like. Obviously people are going to disagree on that one.

Re: Unpopular Opinion Time

[(Anonymous)]

I am willing to agree that outrageous, railroady, excessively limiting prompts exist and can exist, but no one's cited any real ones I would agree with except for the case of Aurae Socktopus Georg.

The volume of "It's terrible how so many people write railroady requests nowadays!" assertions is annoying when this begs the question so urgently.

Re: Unpopular Opinion Time

[(Anonymous)]

DC

I mean, read between the lines there. A lot of coalies agreeing about railroady requests are probably complaining about their current assignment. They're not going to be spilling more info on that for obvious reasons.

I'm not sure why you're dismissing the cited examples just because you disagree. That's just, like, your opinion, man. I've written for one of those people and yes it felt exactly like writing a commission. Maybe you just feel differently because your tastes align with the recip's tastes.

Re: Unpopular Opinion Time

[(Anonymous)]

CYRT

A lot of coalies agreeing about railroady requests are probably complaining about their current assignment. They're not going to be spilling more info on that for obvious reasons. Sure, maybe!


Just to make sure we are on the same page:

The cited examples are:

-Aurae/Aariel/I think it was actually MiriamKenneath or Blue_Ringed_Octopus, throwing a hissy fit over getting a mention of Padme when asking for a Vader/Leia fic
-An unspecified person who takes "no previous relationships" to an unusual degree, not named
-BardicRaven

And further back in coal:
-DNW italics/other emphasis
-DNW incest/rape for Black Jewels

And I think there was another one on last post but someone else will have to dig that up?


I'm not sure why you're dismissing the cited examples just because you disagree. That's just, like, your opinion, man. I've written for one of those people and yes it felt exactly like writing a commission. Maybe you just feel differently because your tastes align with the recip's tastes.

If the assertion is "some people are railroading", then I think it is reasonable to look at specific examples and opine on whether they are railroady. The assertion was not "some people's long and complicated DNW lists are restrictive to me." I certainly can't disagree that different people will find different DNW lists easier or harder to work with! But that isn't railroading.

Re: Unpopular Opinion Time

[(Anonymous)]

CYRT

"If the assertion is "some people are railroading", then I think it is reasonable to look at specific examples and opine on whether they are railroady. The assertion was not "some people's long and complicated DNW lists are restrictive to me."

Interesting distinction. On one hand I think it's pretty clear that it it's subjective: it's unlikely but possible for someone to sign up with the most railroady, even blatantly unenforceable request imaginable and match to the one other person in the world who is giddy to write it, and obviously they would not find it restrictive, but that doesn't mean it's not restrictive.

OTOH there's definitely a sense of appeal to majority in which DNWs are considered reasonable and which aren't, which makes sense, because unless you make sure your niche requests are visible in advance (and possibly even then), you're more likely to match to a writer who has common tastes, not uncommon ones.

Re: Unpopular Opinion Time

[(Anonymous)]

CYRT

Yeah, I think you're right about the appeal to the majority.

I think this conversation is partly guided by: well of course some DNWs are more difficult and restrictive than others, we can all agree on this, everyone go home - that is, if that's the only thing being asserted, what's the conversation?

But people seem to also be claiming that there is

-a trend for more people to have more (excessively?) complicated DNWs lists
-a trend for people to have DNW lists that impose outrageous/unreasonable limits on their writers, to the point that this can actually be DESCRIBED as a thing people, generally, do, rather than rare one-off occurrences

And the conversation has even gone into tangents about how DNWs may be a mistake and we need to overcorrect in the other direction. Some interesting suggestions but I can't see that working nor can I personally agree with the goal.

Re: Unpopular Opinion Time

[(Anonymous)]

DC

"Maybe you just feel differently because your tastes align with the recip's tastes."

Or they matched on a different fandom that doesn't clash with the DNWs as badly.

Re: Unpopular Opinion Time

[(Anonymous)]

DC

Or we just disagree because we understand that "I personally find this DNW limiting because I have an id mismatch with my recip" and "the request is railroading" are very different things.

It sucks to be matched to someone who's such a mismatch that writing something that fills the request feels like pulling teeth, yes. That doesn't mean the recip did anything wrong.

Re: Unpopular Opinion Time

[(Anonymous)]

CYRT

I think it depends. What bugs me about this thread is there's a lot of "id mismatch is the writer's burden to deal with and resolve" vibes going around. I think it's absolutely fine to make it clear what you like in your sign-up and be unapologetic about it. Using DNWs to achieve that is also fine... but it can go too far, and the line isn't always obvious, but it is there..

The thing is, you can put what's most iddy to you (down to the most trivial details like what pet names you want your OTP to use) in your likes or in your DNWs. Either way, the information is there. If the author wants to write that, they probably will, right? Why isn't that enough?

Re: Unpopular Opinion Time

[(Anonymous)]

CYRT

Because for most people, DNWs are dealbreakers not just "well, it's nice if the writer wants to avoid that".

Sure, I can skip the DNWs and put it all in my likes and optional details instead. And like you said "If the author wants to write that, they probably will". And if they don't, and I back button out of the fic because that was one of my dealbreakers and I'm not going to read a fic that has OCs or unrequested ships or mentions of lemons, then that should be okay for the author, right? After all, they had the information in my optional details and chose to not write it, so not getting a comment is also okay?

Because let me tell you, I really doubt it works that way. (And if it does, and the author doesn't care about the comment and also clearly doesn't care about writing what the recip likes, then what's the point of a gift exchange here?)

Re: Unpopular Opinion Time

[(Anonymous)]

DC

The thing is, you can put what's most iddy to you (down to the most trivial details like what pet names you want your OTP to use) in your likes or in your DNWs. Either way, the information is there. If the author wants to write that, they probably will, right? Why isn't that enough?

And now we're back to something I personally find more interesting as a talking point, yay!

I think my own requests are like this - tldr

- I have a very short list of DNWs, and my prompts are a few cheerful paragraphs rather than likes. And this works for me. However, I am probably ticking other boxes some coalies find undesirable. My system works for me because I care less about getting a gift than successfully completing a writing challenge. There are things I don't put in my DNWs that would probably ruin a gift for me, but I focus my DNWs on things I see as a real risk. If I get something else unpleasant (hasn't happened yet) either I roll with it or I would assume it's an author with extremely different ideas to me; either I would get their bizarrely weird edgy take OR I'd get the very bland thing they could write if I'd thrown a DNW book at them. Eh. Some coalies (or maybe just ffa nonnies) would say I'm being unfair to my writer by potentially setting them up to write something in good faith I'd dislike. Call me when it happens.

-I think it's hard for people to talk persuasively about what they like, and people who have mastered this skill underestimate how difficult it is for others

-When people get awful fic or see awful fic in the wild they often add DNWs to protect themselves and so DNWs seem to accrue to people who've been doing exchanges for a while. Meanwhile, it's seen as risky to shorten your DNW list because it can signal that you now welcome something you previously forbade

-It's hard to generalize the right DNW strategy because it's so dependent on the quirks of people with whom you share fandoms.

Re: Unpopular Opinion Time

[(Anonymous)]

but no one's cited any real ones I would agree with

Gee, I wonder why.

Re: Unpopular Opinion Time

[(Anonymous)]

+1

There is ground for nuance between "limits exist" and "no limits exist", ffs.

Re: Unpopular Opinion Time

[(Anonymous)]

CYRT

Because we use "limit" differently here. People who say "these DNW limit me" have repeatedly said that they mean that this is something that impedes their creativity and spoils their fun, whereas saying "exchange fic sets limits as to what the writer is allowed to write" is a neutral statement.

And either way "where is the line for too many limits" is not something that's possible to answer when it comes to DNWs because how limiting DNWs are is subjective and depends on the author's own preferences. Personally, I'd find a single "DNW: A/B" or even a "DNW: italics for emphasis" much more limiting (but still valid!) than a laundry list of "DNW: darkfic, smut, original or unrequested characters, character death, any mentions of children, semicolons, AUs, fic set before the end of canon, kink". Someone else will probably feel differently and might find "DNW: original characters" terribly limiting and everything else easy to accommodate.

Re: Unpopular Opinion Time

[(Anonymous)]

DC

I disagree that we can't discuss where the line is for too many limits just because it's subjective. (And now we're getting somewhere interesting!) For one thing, we already do view some DNWs as too restrictive, officially or unofficially. "DNW: AUs" and "DNW: anything" other than a coffee shop AU" in a request would be seen very differently.

I just think it's a courtesy to allow some leeway. You might not match to someone who wants to write that specific thing, and that's ok.

Re: Unpopular Opinion Time

[(Anonymous)]

CYRT

Except your example isn't subjective. "DNW: anything other than a coffee shop AU" is the very definition of railroading. Regardless of whether I personally like coffee shop AUs (I do) and would find this limiting myself, it's a railroading DNW.

And there's a massive difference between that and a DNW like "no requested relationships". That's what some of us have been saying all along. Railroading is not subjective (and generally not enforcable). Whether a DNW is limiting for you personally and might get in the way of you having the best time writing your assignment on the other hand is subjective (and a reasonable DNW).

Re: Unpopular Opinion Time

[(Anonymous)]

CYRT

Coalie, why do you think I used the very definition of railroading as my example. Seriously.

You keep using the word "subjective", I do not think it means what you think it means... I guarantee you that if you had this exact conversation now about whether "DNW: anything other than a coffee shop AU" is unreasonably railroady or not, without it already being enshrined in the rules as an unenforceable DNW, there would be coalies piping up in favor of how if can't write a coffee shop AU, then you're an inflexible writer and should probably default. Come on. You know there would be.

The point is that while some DNWs are on the official list of examples of railroady DNWs by mod consensus, that does not actually mean it's a complete or comprehensive (or even reasonable!) list, WTH. We absolutely can discuss which ones are railroady even though it's subjective.

Re: Unpopular Opinion Time

[(Anonymous)]

SC

That was needlessly condescending of me, I'm sorry. I should take a chill pill and not get so worked up over stupid shit.

Tl;DR of the above post: all DNWs are subjective, some DNWs being on the mod-approved list of shit they won't enforce doesn't really mean much when it comes to other DNWs.

Re: Unpopular Opinion Time

[(Anonymous)]

I can't remember the last time I encountered italics in a fic so I'm really struggling to wrap my mind around how they could be integral to someone's fic writing style.

Re: Unpopular Opinion Time

[(Anonymous)]

"You never encounter fic that heavily relies on italics for emphasis," coalie asked. "Huh, that's so weird."

They wondered if the other coalie was in very different fandoms, or if they were just the type whose eyes skipped over formatting when they read and they simply didn't notice the italics use in the fic they read.

Re: Unpopular Opinion Time

[(Anonymous)]

NC

Italics is so weird to me for emphasis when it doesn’t really stand out that much and ALL CAPS or bold is right there.

Re: Unpopular Opinion Time

[(Anonymous)]

Thanks, I hated that.

Re: Unpopular Opinion Time

[(Anonymous)]

I think a lot of people in audiovisual or voice-acted fandoms get overly fixated on trying to capture every little nuance of how the actors pronounce things by using italics for emphasis instead of just trusting the reader to be able to hear the voices in their head as they read. (Similar to how some fic writers will go overboard trying to describe every little detail of body language all the time instead of just a few representative actions.)

Re: Unpopular Opinion Time

[(Anonymous)]

I feel twice called out by that!

/coalie using lots of italics AND describing every detail of body language

Re: Unpopular Opinion Time

[(Anonymous)]

You don't even have to be in an audiovisual canon's fandom for it, OTL. I'm glad I've been branching out into style pastiches for some assignments, because trying to emulate a specific written style really made me aware of how much I overuse italics. If every other word is emphasized then nothing is you dum-dum!