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Comments

[(Anonymous)]

Except that's not true at all, is it.

It would be perfectly easy to have a rule that says: canons with sympathetic portrayals of Righteous Among the Nations Nazis are fine; canons with sympathetic portrayals of Nazi generals who helped Hitler conquer Europe and never lifted a finger to help his victims until it became obvious he was going to destroy Germany too are not.

[(Anonymous)]

So no Inglourious Basterds or World on Fire? No Bent?

[(Anonymous)]

If you thought Inglourious Basterds or World on Fire were sympathetic to the Nazis that seems like more of a you issue, honestly.

Bent is probably out by this criterion, but since it has all of one fanwork for it on AO3, and that not produced for an exchange as far as I can tell, that seems like a sacrifice fandom can afford to bear.

[(Anonymous)]

that seems like a sacrifice fandom can afford to bear.

Fandom "can bear" sacrificing all the tiny fandoms (and honestly, all the large ones too), but the question is: why should it have to, when the easiest solution is 'don't offer or request fandoms and ships you find offensive'.

[(Anonymous)]

Because that solution is insufficient to solve the problem of Aquatics.

Really, Nazi kinksters in fandom should be taking this whole kerfuffle as a salutary lesson in why they shouldn't be assholes about their weird kink. If Aquatics weren't such a consistently bad actor no one would be lobbying for Desert Peach to be banned either.

[(Anonymous)]

Except there is no problem with Aquatics other than their weird behaviour on FFA, and you're not going to get rid of that by banning their fandoms in an exchange. I dare say that problem would probably go away if everyone ignored it for long enough.

[(Anonymous)]

Eh, people have been ignoring their creepy recruitment attempts for years now and they're still at it. Some wankers are persistent.

The reason people don't want to write for them in exchanges is their weird behaviour on FFA, so these two things aren't unrelated. If they just quietly nominated Desert Peach among a slate of more matchable fandoms for most exchanges and then requested it along with some other rare ones for Yuletide, most people would have no issue with them or with the nomination. In fact, they did match on it this Yuletide, and got a fic, and the initial response here on Coal was "Oh, I'm happy for them." It was only when they pulled their creepy bait-and-switch routine over at FFA that all the Nazi wank resumed.

I think it's a problem that they're making people uncomfortable in exchanges, and since I'm against banning individual exchange participants for behaving badly on anonmemes when they haven't actually broken any exchange rules, making the canon about which they've been creepy ineligible is a better solution.

[(Anonymous)]

Or The Pianist, I guess? It shows Nazi Germany as being horrible, but I'm sure someone people who consider the one good guy officer enough for a ban.

[(Anonymous)]

Again, if you think a character sparing one guy from the mass murder he's happily engaged in because he's a good musician counts as a "sympathetic portrayal", that sounds like a you problem.

[(Anonymous)]

AYRT

How is that different from the fandoms you want to ban, then? Where do you draw the line at "sympathetic portrayal"? And I assumed your "sympathetic portrayal" assumption wasn't just for the canon but also for the request - and yes, the majority Pianist fic that was written after the movie came out would absolutely count as sympathetic for me, considering that 90% of it was sappy shipfic.

[(Anonymous)]

NC

Where do you draw the line at "sympathetic portrayal"?

If I were the mod? Wherever the fuck I'd felt the line belonged to.

[(Anonymous)]

So, hot evil Hollywood Nazis only, right?

[(Anonymous)]

I'd draw the distinction at:
- Was the sympathetically portrayed supporter of the Leopards Eating People's Faces Party trying to stop leopards from eating people's faces before the leopards tried to eat their/Germany's face? (Schindler is fine; Erwin Rommel and not)
- Were they a mentally competent adult at the time they pledged their support? (Jojo Rabbit is fine)
- Is the portrayal in fact sympathetic? (Canons where Nazis are sparing individual Jews for obviously transactional reasons like they're fucking them or they appreciate their piano skills, designed to highlight the grotesquerie of the situation, are fine)

The majority of Hannibal fic is sappy Hannigram shipfic, but it doesn't mean the canon is sympathetic to cannibalism. These edge cases are not actually hard to arbitrate.

[(Anonymous)]

Hamilton, with sympathetic portrayal of Jefferson: in or out?

[(Anonymous)]

This is a weird argument because Jefferson is the villain of Hamilton. You want 1775.

[(Anonymous)]

plus 100

"sympathetic portrayals of Nazi Germany are not admissible" -- one and done. I know people love to argue but this is not the moral conundrum leading to fourteen people in a consent exchange some coalies are pushing.

[(Anonymous)]

When a holiday fest (Pear Tree) banned real and fictional Nazis along with the alt right in general etc people rioted because how dare.

[(Anonymous)]

I mean, Yuletide banned Nazis this year and it still happened.

[(Anonymous)]

Yuletide banned the following RPF: Donald Trump, serial killers alive after 1900, and figures whose celebrity status is based on adherence to Nazi ideology.

There's a difference between this and banning fictional anything.

[(Anonymous)]

And yet people still participated, not giving a fuck about someone else throwing a fit.

[(Anonymous)]

What isn't true at all? CYRT said you can't get rid of Desert Peach with a rule banning sympathetic portrayals of Nazi Germany, and it sounds like you agree.

Who is going to go through all these canons with Nazis in them to determine whether some Nazi character they contain is portrayed too sympathetically?

[(Anonymous)]

CIRT said a rule banning Desert Peach would also catch Schindler's List, which is idiotic.

If you had a "no sympathetic portrayals of Nazi Germany" rule Aquatics would wank endlessly about whether Desert Peach was in fact sympathetic to Nazi Germany, something where it probably is genuinely a bit of an edge case. But what's inarguably true is that Desert Peach is sympathetic to Erwin Rommel, so if you want to get rid of it you just need a rule banning shit sympathetic to people like Rommel.

The mods would make these decisions when the canons are nominated, just like they'd made eligibility decisions about any other canon. Since the vast majority of them are never going to be nominated, it's hardly going to place an undue administrative burden on them.

[(Anonymous)]

But what's inarguably true is that Desert Peach is sympathetic to Erwin Rommel,

Since you're obviously read the comic, and "sympathetic" can mean a lot of things, could you define what it means here? The wacky comedy portrays him as human? The wacky comedy doesn't show him personally committing mass murder?

[(Anonymous)]

The wacky comedy portrays him as one of the good guys, to the point of inventing a wacky comedy fictional brother for him so readers can squee about their familial relationship.

"Erwin is the sweetest big brother, awkward and cool!" Aquatics gushes, like a total fucking lunatic, while all the sane people back the fuck away. Media designed to elicit that reaction qualifies as "sympathetic".

Now, I don't claim to be a Desert Peach expert; if you want to make a case that Aquatics has totally misread the comic/associated media I'm prepared to hear it.

[(Anonymous)]

I searched for the squee, and all I can say is that those two threads aren't about Desert Peach the comic. They're about some kind of alternate history novel self-published by Barr, featuring some of the same characters. I only know it from what I just read on dememe.