coaltide | Offseason #1

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offseason

Offseason #1

Use this post for any exchanges running from January onwards into the first quarter of the year. Try to keep final Yuletide thoughts in the last coal post of 2019 for ease of conversation.

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Nothing! It is fucked up to say that you know someone’s orientation better than they do. Lesbians who were in relationships with dudes before they came out are still lesbians. Lesbians who have sex with trans women are still lesbians. Trans women are women, and trans women who identify as lesbians are not, as was said at the beginning of this trainwreck, “straight men”.

Some people ID as bi. But people who don’t... *gasp* aren’t bi!!

you have a point that lesbians feel pressured to date men before coming out... and again after they come out pressured to date "trans lesbians" lmao

it's fucked to try and pressure lesbians to date males no matter how they identify

By enacting pressure on lesbians to not date trans women? Is that how you win?

Trans women are not men, and lesbians can date them without having to reassess their identity as lesbians.

My personal willingness to date trans women has nothing to do with you.

driveby anon here

but isn't the whole point of being a lesbian being same-sex attracted?

Trans women are women.

I assume by that you're disagreeing with me thinking a lesbian is same-sex attracted, so what is the right word for someone who is?

genuinely a bit turned around by all of this

Lesbians are exclusively attracted to women. Trans women are women.

Women who are exclusively attracted to women and include trans women in that are still lesbians.

I don't know what part of this is confusing.

a lot of it but it's not you in particular, I think I've been out of fandom for too long and need to do some reading.

though this does explain a fic I stumbled on a while back!

jsyk, trans people aren't actually just a fandom thing? that sounds like an asshole-y thing to say, but i mean it sincerely. if fandom is a large part of your exposure to anglo-queer understandings, it might not be obvious.

I think it may be location/generational! I did not know people thought like this, but I will do some reading.

dc

There is no word in this discourse for the group of women that you would use "lesbian" to refer to. Other than, sometimes, "terfs."

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Do you have any idea how many lesbians use dildos? Are you saying that lesbians that like any penetration aren’t lesbians because they’re only supposed to like scissoring or something?

sorry, can you back up a bit? I didn't say anything about penetration.

If penises don’t matter at all then what is the issue? Are you telling me lesbians need to do chromosomal analysis to ensure that both they and their partners are both XX in order for it to count as same sex?

nayrt

That's a big "if" that only the people who are on your side of this argument agree with.

Well no more the presence of a pussy I guess, at least for me. Penises (flesh ones, since you mentioned dildos) have always seemed as sexual as, idk, staplers.

You can’t know someone’s sex without checking their chromosomes. Some intersex people only find out they’re intersex by karyotyping later in life. To call attraction to people of the same gender “same sex attraction” is to rely on an obsolete binarist understanding of sex that presumes sex is the same as genital configuration and is inherently linked to gender.

If you are attracted to specific genitals, you should be aware that a variety of biological sexes can have them and you may not be able to tell what biological sex someone is by their genitals. Similarly, you cannot be certain of someone’s genital configuration based on their gender or their gender based on their genitals.

“Female” is what we currently call a biological sex configuration described by chromosome set X,X. “Woman” is a gender and does not inherently reflect XX, XXY, XYY, XY, or other chromosome set. A lesbian in a relationship with, for example, a DFAB person who identifies as a lesbian and who has a Y chromosome, is still a lesbian. The presence of her Y chromosome doesn’t invalidate the intersex woman’s gender identity or her partner’s identity as a lesbian. A trans woman, just like the intersex woman, is still a woman even if she has a Y chromosome.

anon i think you don’t understand the comment.

a: wait so liking trans women is still being a lesbian? i thought that meant you only like same sex?
b: liking trans women is liking the same sex. liking a trans women doesn’t mean only vaginas do it for you. in fact lots of vagina-only lesbians still use penis shaped sex toys. it isn’t only scissoring and clit stimulation. someone having a penis isn’t a deal breaker if you areadly have penis shaped things in your wlw sex life
a: what does that have to do with same sex though? the penis isnt the issue
b: if the penis doesnt matter then why are you claiming same-sex attraction excludes trans people then? lots of people actually have no idea what their chromosomal gender is. are you saying for it to be same sex (where external genitals dont matter) that both parties would need to have the same chromosomes in order to count?

Ah, then the explanation is: Some lesbians are transphobes who refuse to acknowledge that trans women are women, not men, on the grounds that they were (presumably) born with a penis. They often also insist that trans men are women, on the grounds that they were (presumably) born with a vagina. I say presumably because some folks are born with ambiguous genitals. To transphobes, the genitals very much matter— sometimes to the exclusion of a person’s identity (agender and nonbinary folks are sometimes conceptualized as Women Lite, for example).

The side saying external genitals don’t matter and point out sex is unknowable without testing the chromosomes seem to me to imply that because there is no way to actually determine if a same-gender cis partner is of the same biological sex, “same sex attraction” is a misnomer from before the understanding was that sex and gender are not always linked.

Feeling that trans people, their bodies or genitals, the act of transition itself, or the fact that trans people have sex lives is gross is transphobia, just the way that people who feel that gay people’s attractions or sex lives are gross is homophobia.

A woman who thinks that gay people have the right to get married and adopt kids and do all the things straight folk can do, and who would not date a particular man who had sexual experiences with other men may not be actively biphobic or homophobic, but if she would not date any man who had been sexually involved with another man she is probably squicked out because of homophobia and biphobia.

Someone who acknowledges trans people are the gender they identify as and respects their belonging in spaces for queer people of their gender, and who is attracted to people of that gender but chooses not to become sexually involved with a particular trans person isn’t necessarily transphobic, but if they’re squicked out only because the person is trans, or feel they could never be attracted to any trans person it’s probably due to transphobia.

A man who is attracted to men is gay.
A man who is attracted to men but disgusted by trans men is a gay transphobe.
A woman who is attracted to women is a lesbian.
A woman who is attracted to women but is disgusted by trans women is a transphobic lesbian.

Woman is the social term used for the female sex in humans.

What is it about someone's gender that can make you attracted to them? If you can't tell anybody's gender, how can you know whether someone falls into your group of people to whom you're attracted? How can homosexuality exist? Or heterosexuality for that matter?

Do you walk up to random people and ask to see their birth certificate and/or genitals?

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Lol good job, you figured out that all the words and concept we have for attraction are made up and inadequate. Gender is a way of being. Do you have x-ray vision and scope out everyone’s genitals to know for certain you have never thought a trans person was hot? You pass them on the street without realizing, just statistically.

Re: Chocolate Box - Letter 3T1L

(Anonymous) - 2020-01-09 12:31 (UTC) - Expand

is this a parody? Are you trying to sound like a fucking frat bro right now?

dc

You guy are feeding this by replying. The coalie is obviously enjoying being so edgy and controversial because of the reaction it's getting.

For that matter, many women wear trousers, so if you think about it, any lesbian who doesn't exclusively date Amish women is bisexual.

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